Curse

bungusmaximus · Apr 19, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I like PUG's, but on the condition that I already done the mission myself. I am more at ease whem people mess up missions because I don't need them myself anymore. I sometmes zone to, say, Tahnakai Temple when I'm bored and feel like killing stuff. There's always some people that need help and if they are not too stubborn I always hop on and own some. Doesn't matter if not everyone is über-pro, mediocre players can also finish GW. The only thing that bites are grievers and AFK-ers.

ValaOfTheFens · Apr 19, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Recently I've been in quite a few good pugs. Yesterday I ran some guys to a few outposts in Kryta(for free b/c random philanthropy is always good) AND did Villainy with them after meeting them at D'Alessio Seaboard. Then I went to The Wilds and found another great group(there were 2 other Stargate SG-1 fans!!) and after getting the bonus there my group went and did Bloodstone Fen as well. Maybe with Hard Mode on the horizon people are biting the bullet and just pugging to avoid any mishaps that heros and henchies sometimes create. *sigh* I'm dreading going to the Crystal Desert and attempting to get the bonus on the missions there. All the pugs I was in for those missions were either highly incompetent or we had too many leavers to do the bonus.

Star Gazer · Apr 19, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

PuGs are dead.... for me at least. The retardness probablilty is too high to bother. Play as an ele, put 2 SF heroes and a MM with virulence and everything dies in under 5 seconds.

/signed x1000 XD

TheRaven · Apr 19, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

Then I went to The Wilds and found another great group(there were 2 other Stargate SG-1 fans!!)

Oooh, we have got to get together in game!! No spoilers though, I haven't seen any of season 10 yet.

BTW, I can help ya with the desert missions. I have all the bonuses there. I think Dunes of Despair was the most frustrating. I got into several "bonus only" pugs that had no clue what the bonus was or how to accomplish it. I finally ended up doing the bonus by myself with henchies only. (YES! It is possible to get the bonus with only heros/henchies! Don't let someone tell you differently.)

freekedoutfish · Apr 19, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

Might want to get facts right before claiming something like this

...
You'll have plenty of opportunities to co-op with other players right from the beginning - (thanks to low level dungeons and group quests) - but you can also avoid all that and solo, whatever feels best for you.

To the disappearing of PUG's dilemma,
I'm personally hoping that coming hard mode will bring PUG's back to the game like they once were, would be nice to have areas where you actually have to play with other players, you know.. socialize a little bit...It can be surprisingly fun.

The poster you quoted was actually correct to criticise the PUGing in WoW.

I played WoW for about 2 months, and I found it near impossible to ever get into a groups. The reason being that no one was ever around, or would let me join them.

Most people in that game, at low level, want to solo to level up faster or find rare drops.

The result being that I couldnt do high end quests or dungeons that required teams, and I was stuck doing low-reward quests, fishing or grinding until I was high enough to solo them.

I spent 95% of my time soloing that game due to this.

It didnt have an MMO feel at all to it. And I didnt want to play solo through an entire game, and wait until lvl60 or lvl70 to get to an area where all the PUGing happened.

That would take months just to reach a PUGable area.

I eventually just packed it in and came back to GWs because I have the option to use AI when I cant find a PUG. GWs is superiour in so many ways to WoW, because it offers an alternative to PUGing and offers AI.

If we scrapped AI in GWs, we would end up with a large majority of players unable to find parties to do quests or missions, because (as in WoW) most would be off doing elite zones and high end content.

It would alienate those players who dont like to PUG, and find it hard or boring to solo. Plus you cant solo GWs, because of missions and quests which require teams.

Henches and Heroes are the back bone of GWs, and it would fall apart without them. I would hate to see GWs, end up the way WoW is.

I'd love it infact if Anet removed AI for a whole weekend to see what happened. I can quarantee you, by Monday everyone would be crying out to have the henches and heroes back.

People would be chomping at each other necks shouting "you noob, you completely ruined that mission".

trustgw · Apr 19, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It is not heroes that killed PuG's, heroes rescued PvE. It is some players that 'killed' PuG's, it's the rushing, the non-communication and the fanatical drive for achievement that gives PuG's a high risk of being no-fun.

These people always existed and if what you say is true then Prophecies should be just as bad as Nightfall and it is not.

trustgw · Apr 19, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If we scrapped AI in GWs, we would end up with a large majority of players unable to find parties to do quests or missions, because (as in WoW) most would be off doing elite zones and high end content.

It would alienate those players who dont like to PUG, and find it hard or boring to solo. Plus you cant solo GWs, because of missions and quests which require teams.

No one is saying to scrap the AI here or to nerf the Solo player at all. I think people that like to play with the AI should have that option. What I am saying is the option to play with PUGs should also exist. At least at the same level that people played with PUGs in the first GW. And the whole thing about people being dumber does not hold because people have been dumb way before this game and will continue to be dumb till the end of time.

So if Puggies do not exist here anymore and WoW is bad with puggies, what game has an active PUG group similar to the first GW?

Aeon221 · Apr 19, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

There is a common misconception here where some seem to think they have the right to control another player, or at least their skill bar and their style of play.

It is their skill bar, not yours, and it is their right to use it the way they see fit, not your right to fill it as you see fit. It is their game, for which they payed with their money, not yours, and they have the right to play and enjoy it as much as you.

Giving advice is fine, but trying to control other people, or even the skill bars they bring on their characters is not.

Essentially, it is their right to run their build, whether you like it or not.

How dare I demand that people whom I have invited into my group play with _at a minimum_ an optimized bar and some common sense! You're right, they have the right to waste my time with poor play! I should also give them my money and dance about naked, as they have the right to wealth and gratuitous nudity also!

It is courteous and logical to play with an efficient bar and follow the orders of the party leader. When I choose to join a pug group (usually in HA, but sometimes in PvE) I submit to build changes and listen to the orders of my group leader. When I form a group, I expect the same respect and the efficient participation of my group mates.

Why? Because this is not a solo game. It is a team game. Bringing a poor bar may very well cause a wipe, and waste time for the other six or seven members of the party. This is unacceptable, whatever hypothetical rights that player has to a tardbar, and therefore that player has a moral obligation to the rest of the team to at least attempt to make a better bar, or to accept advice on and demands for specific and general changes.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 19, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

I just played in a pug in vizunah we got masters and everyone was great, we all knew our job and nobody died(i almost died when the shiroken at the end spiked me when my enchant had just run out- luckily i had faithful intervention), the mission was just a breeze apart from that.

Its just luck, although it can be frustrating there are some v. decent players out there and i find it much more fun to have a nice chat+get wiped, then play with 7 other AI, which is boring as hell.

Bryant Again · Apr 19, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I played WoW for about 2 months, and I found it near impossible to ever get into a groups. The reason being that no one was ever around, or would let me join them.

You shouldn't base your WoW experience based on your experience in an unpopulated server. Always check to see the population of a server before you join.

And Guild Wars doesnt' offer AI, it needs it. In WoW, if you weren't able to find a group for an instance (missions, as they're called in WoW), you could still progress through the game soloing and grinding for money and EXP. If there were no Henchman or Heros in Guild Wars, and you were unable to find a group, you were screwed.

Edit: I would also like to mention that instances in WoW aren't required to progress further in the game.

---

That aside, I was a little confused about the heroes when they were introduced with Nightfall. To my knowledge, they were implemented mainly due to the fact that Henchman had unsatisfactory skill bars and equipment

...So, why not just improve the henchmans' inventory and bars instead of having to implement Heroes? One reason I thought henchmen "sucked" was "to encourage the player to join with real people". However, it needs to be taken into account that there are quite a few players out there with skillbars and equipment worse than the henchmen. So in the end, you could say that henchmen helped more than hurt.

The simple answer is this:Heroes didn't kill PUGs. PUGs killed PUGs.

trustgw · Apr 19, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

How dare I demand that people whom I have invited into my group play with _at a minimum_ an optimized bar and some common sense!

I think we play two different games. Most of the time the PUGs I play with are fine. I always play with PUGs and I rarely lose any missions/quest when I play with a group. I normally create the group where I select the people I need and then some simple direction and every usually follows and listens. You make it sound like most of the GW Gamer population are a bunch of useless players.

It seems like the problem might be that you have poor PUG leadership skills. As I would always play with PUGs I learn a few things about PUG selection and direction. For non Guild games, PUG leadership skill is more powerful then any Elite skill out there.

Bryant Again · Apr 19, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustgw

I think we play two different games. Most of the time the PUGs I play with are fine. I always play with PUGs and I rarely lose any missions/quest when I play with a group. I normally create the group where I select the people I need and then some simple direction and every usually follows and listens. You make it sound like most of the GW Gamer population are a bunch of useless players.

It seems like the problem might be that you have poor PUG leadership skills. As I would always play with PUGs I learn a few things about PUG selection and direction. For non Guild games, PUG leadership skill is more powerful then any Elite skill out there.

What if you're not the leader, though?

Navaros · Apr 19, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

A good leader would be required to kick horrible players, which is most of them.

Here is a build I recently saw a PUG player on Thunderhead Keep use.

Here is a build I recent saw a PUG player monk at Naphui Quarter use:

I guarantee that if you ask the PUG players in any district other perhaps than DoA to send you their build, you will see a ton of builds just as insanely ridiculous as these ones.

Is it really any wonder why tons of good players hate PUG players and will never play with them?

Why would any good player wanna waste his time and energy and give himself a headache dealing with stupidity like that in order to make a good PUG, when thank God he doesn't have to due to Heroes and Hench?

Age · Apr 19, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Well, why would other people want to play with you? Nothing personal, it's just how one must approach the issue to understand why people dislike forming PUGs, and why Heroes arrives as a solution, not a problem.

(added clarification: people were complaining about PUGs way before heroes arrived. Heroes arrived as a solution to the problem and the result was that the PUGs just couldn't keep up. A human is an unknown and can turn out to be very bad.)

This is not true heros were not a replacement for PuGs it was suppose to to be a customizable henchmen which you can't still can't do.This is if you don't have Heros and some really can't but together a good Hero Monk bar as I have seen.I have seen PuG Monks like myself with better bars.What the community wanted was to be able to change the current Henchie bars but still can't.

viper11025 · Apr 19, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

HAhaHAha....Are you serious?
Theres a way to fix this besides your guild. Make better builds for your hero and always carry a monk with you. One more thing thier lvls do matter on thier armor value. Please don't quit GW, PM me in the game friday or saturday I can help you for a bit and give you a few good weapons and builds.Trust me we can kill ANYTHING thats not at the end of the game together.
(Try farming in Prophices and get some better staffs for Dunkuro and blades for Koss)
(Koss + MAX Gothic Blade + Sun&Moon Shield= Gladiator)

Personette · Apr 20, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I have to say I agree with trust GW here. I like to PUG, I do it fairly often...I'd so much rather be in a group with a player who has a crappy skill bar but tries hard and isn't a pain to deal with than a really great player who has an attitude problem.

I have a lot of respect for skill, as a general rule, and I'm always glad to be with players who are better at the game than me - it's one way to learn things. But I don't need to have someone snapping at me every time I make a mistake, and I really, really dislike listening to a good player with a chip on his shoulder insult some other poor player who apparently isn't up to snuff.

Talent will only get you so far...in a game or in life in general. But talent is a dime a dozen and good social skills are priceless.

Ninna · Apr 20, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by joukou

If I just want to finish a mission as fast as possible/Masters, I take heroes/hench.
When I actually wanna have fun, I go with PUGs.
...
My best GW experiences come from PUGs, so yay for them!

same applies to me

trustgw · Apr 20, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

So I finally found a PUG group today and the person that started the group wanted a Good Monk. Having quite a bit of experience with Monking with PUGs I knew this would not be a problem. I have kept entire groups alive in the hardest missions and Solo'ed the hardest areas with my Invinci-Monk.

Well, we go out and in two hits he is down to like 20% of his health. I hit him with everything I had (including Divine active) and I get him back up, but then 3 more hits and he was dead. He then crys and does not understand how I could not keep him alive. He rants a little more then disconnects. I then easily keep the rest of the group alive. This guy is now going to complain how I suck because I could not keep his sorry butt alive.

Dynas Helmsplitter · Apr 20, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

PUG is still alive. Still fairly easy to get PUG groups for alot of the Proph and Factions missions, and alot of the Nightfall missions also.

Personally, 2 of my biggest dislikes with the "Henchmen" were, well, just skills on the Ele and Necro. If they were henchmen that raised a few minions, or a henchmen that used Meteor Shower(Argo uses Meteor, but thats it).

Heroes, I believe, worked too good. I would think Heroes were originally designed to cover builds that the current henchmen didnt have, since they were pre-set to 1 particular, subpar build(it works, but, could be alot better). Heroes could be set to anything, need a SS/SV Necro for Shiro, cant find a PUG..Throw Olias or Masters in, Voila. But due to the sheer amount of customization enabled through heroes, it has made a huge impact on the Teamwork aspect. Gates of Madness is commonly done with PUGS since alot of people dont know what to do, but, I've successfully gotten Masters with 2 people, and 6 heroes.

Honestly, I think having a sub-panel for henchmen would have been more than adeqate. For instance.

Cynn(Fire Henchmen)
-Default Build
-Single target spam. IE Flare, Immolate, Mindburn, etc..
-AoE. Firestorm, Tenai's Heat, Meteor Shower, etc..

Or, Eve for example.
-Blood
-Curse
-Death, throw in a few minions and that would completely satisfied me.

But oh well, Heroes work, but too good IMO. Sure, some builds they act retarded with, but the same is for real people. Me and a Friend have CLEARED FoW with 6 heroes. Kind've sad that 8 real people rarely clear Wailing Lord, alot never make it to the to Shadow Tower...oh well.

LoL

Amy Awien · Apr 20, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

How dare I demand that people whom I have invited into my group play with _at a minimum_ an optimized bar and some common sense! You're right, they have the right to waste my time with poor play! I should also give them my money and dance about naked, as they have the right to wealth and gratuitous nudity also!

You do not live on a planet where everything evolves around you and your wishes, and no matter how much you feel this is wrong, other people have their own minds and their own wat to do things.

Everyone has a right to enjoy the game, including you and me and everyone we know. If that thought was in the back our minds more often, PuG's would be more fun.